Better Brand Planning - Sarah Carter, Global Planning Partner adam&eve\TBWA (English)

00:00:06: My name is Olaf Hartmann.

00:00:24: Today's episode about something that sounds almost too simple to be profound, and yet it might the single most important thing anyone working in marketing needs to hear!

00:00:42: It reads, They really don't give a shit.

00:00:48: Five words slightly rude and yet as we will discover if you truly internalize what they mean almost every major mistake in marketing becomes avoidable.

00:00:57: The obsession with messaging the neglect of entertainment the belief that people process our ads the way We present them in boardrooms falls away once you accept that starting point.

00:01:14: But here's the uncomfortable question, if it is so obvious why does it keep needing to be said?

00:01:20: My guest today is Sarah Carter global planning partner at Adam and Eve TBWA formerly Adam & Eve DDB.

00:01:27: well thats a tongue breaker.

00:01:29: before that BMP agency invented account planning as we know it.

00:01:35: Sarah started her career in marketing and unilever then joined BMP without fully realizing at the time that she had arrived in the most influential planning department.

00:01:46: Over a career spanning four decades, Sarah has led communication strategy for some of world's most celebrated brands.

00:01:53: She is co-author together with Lesbynette Of How Not To Plan – Sixty Six Ways to Screw It Up A book by the Planning Community called The Bible.

00:02:02: She has won multiple IPA effectiveness awards, including the Grand Prix.

00:02:06: And Mark Ritzen has publicly called her his favorite advertising thinker of all time which she modestly suspects had a lot to do with the word shit in her most famous quote.

00:02:18: Sarah is someone who always has been interested in the messy and human versus consumer – the effective vs fashionable The humble vs pompous.

00:02:26: Tell it as simplicity vs complex to Markencraft.

00:02:32: It's a real pleasure, have you?

00:02:34: Thank you for the pleasure of being here!

00:02:35: What lovely introduction thank-you.

00:02:38: Sarah.

00:02:39: where did you grow up and what was...what was the first money you earned there?

00:02:43: Well I grew up in rural Norfolk which is ...I don't know how much your listeners would know about this but it sort bit that sticks out on their east coast of Great Britain.

00:02:56: so its quite a rural area Quite quite sleepy.

00:03:01: i grew up there.

00:03:02: yeah went to school.

00:03:03: so the first money I was waiting at a local restaurant.

00:03:10: I sort of money from being very bad waitress that would be,

00:03:22: You earned.

00:03:23: what did you spend it on your number

00:03:25: i will probably be closed at the time.

00:03:27: there's a shop where their local town was a little town called king's lin didn't have very interesting shops in it but they were one court eat and doesn't exist anymore.

00:03:36: I used to use to go there and spend my money, height of glamour, being able to go into Kingsley and buy my own clothes there.

00:03:48: So yeah...

00:03:49: Downtown!

00:03:50: Downtown Kingsley!

00:03:52: How exciting is that?

00:03:53: Yeah so that would be what it was spent on I think

00:03:56: but It's a beautiful country.

00:03:57: i love the north of

00:03:59: England.

00:03:59: yes it is it is very beautiful.

00:04:02: And then later on like going to uni or even during school do you remember moment?

00:04:10: some people don't but many When was the first moment that you really understood what?

00:04:17: The concept of brand is all about, like beyond being exposed to brands by Brands.

00:04:22: But first, like he woke up to this concept OK.

00:04:25: I could

00:04:27: tell exactly when it was actually so.

00:04:31: i did my A levels at school and most people didn't know what they wanted do.

00:04:34: And there's a number.

00:04:36: There are probably four lucky moments in my career.

00:04:39: So the first one where teacher told me called Human Sciences which had only been around for eight years.

00:04:49: It happened to be at Oxford University, it was the only university that did it.

00:04:52: so and I just thought that course sounded brilliant!

00:04:55: And iIwas lucky enough to get in...it wasn't like I wanted go to Oxford but I wanted to do this course..and you know little did l know at the time.

00:05:02: ..but actually it couldn't have been a better course of planning....i'd no idea what planning was at this stage.

00:05:07: ...but anthropology, sort of human geology.

00:05:14: Human biology psychology statistics.

00:05:17: it was literally a planning course.

00:05:19: so I was very lucky i did that.

00:05:21: but then the second lucky kind of twist in the road and this is when I first heard about Brands because I think I rocked up one day to a lecture that got cancelled at The Human Sciences Department And next door was the Careers Office Just to kill an hour just thought ill go there see what's going on.

00:05:39: And there was a talk by a P&G brand manager on toothpaste, it's Colgate I think.

00:05:48: That person changed my life because i had no idea what brands were and never heard of marketing before that... ...I didn't really know what to do but actually liked the academic world about anthropology.. ..and then I sat here listening for an hour talking.

00:06:08: It was Cress, it was Crest Toothpaste.

00:06:12: The Crest buyers of toothpaste.

00:06:13: why they bought one and suddenly this light bulb went off.

00:06:15: I thought This is like commercial anthropology...I don't have to go live in a mud hut and study tribes somewhere.. ...I can study the great tribe of the British public.

00:06:26: You could go downtown Kingsley instead

00:06:29: And get paid for it!

00:06:30: I'm not going to sleep at my bed every night and drink nice cups of tea still rather than being with some sort remote tribe.

00:06:36: so that's what bold moment.

00:06:40: Who knows what would have happened if I hadn't stumbled on that?

00:06:43: That's what led me to be interested in brands and marketing, then I was lucky enough to get my job at Unilever.

00:06:51: Then the next lucky break after three years of Unileva in marketing—and they did a really good marketing training scheme in those days –I'm sure doing kind of research.

00:07:07: And the bits and the job I really loved were the research, working with the ad agencies... The bits that i didn't like so much were negotiating trade discounts on...I was at Bird's Eye Waltz when I was working off fish fingers...negotiating discounts on fish fingers with Tesco buyers.

00:07:22: So then decided to move into advertising..and had heard a planning by that stage.

00:07:28: Luckily three jobs in planning one which is BMP as you said in your intro.

00:07:34: I had no idea that it was as good is it was but the people i asked just said you'd be mad if u don't take bmp one because thats where you go to learn about planning.

00:07:43: so.

00:07:44: I ended up working at BMP.

00:07:46: that's the third lucky twist.

00:07:47: and then the fourth one was a happen to sit next to les for great deal of time while i was working there and hence became off, Okay,

00:08:00: slow down.

00:08:00: This is too good!

00:08:02: Let's pick this part a little bit because we have some younger audience I know and let start with just the word planning yeah?

00:08:13: Because i think that it creates a lot of confusion.

00:08:15: what is brand-planning from...

00:08:18: Well in the days when I joined at BMP It was known as the sort of voice in the agency, that's what it was.

00:08:29: Basically our job... BNP planning invented planning alongside JWT.

00:08:35: so we both came up with this at the same time.

00:08:38: Our kind of planing was very different and had a lot of planners.

00:08:44: So basically you have to say number of planners pretty well as account men.

00:08:48: That is unusual.

00:08:50: Every count would have planner an account man sitting side by side and we used to describe it as the account man was the sort of pilot flying the plane, then the planner was a sort of navigator if you like sitting next to them.

00:09:04: And there was very heavy emphasis on planners doing their own primary research.

00:09:09: so focus groups in those days.

00:09:15: that whole post-it note I think probably comes back.

00:09:22: We would regularly every year go out around Britain in people's homes In those days because it didn't.

00:09:28: we did do them in viewing facilities And that probably seems quite strange to some of your younger listeners as well.

00:09:35: We had a research department at BMP whose sole job was setting up groups focus groups for the planners To go too, and we actually employed three people to do That.

00:09:45: so I would regularly do one hundred plus groups a year traveling around the country on my Brands.

00:09:51: we only worked on two or three brands.

00:09:53: Um, and we would do everything the research from you know mpd to a lot of ad development um work And then sort of evaluation work as well.

00:10:02: but But those sitting in people's homes real peoples homes You know group was an hour-and-a-half long.

00:10:09: he'd do over a hundred a year.

00:10:11: eight people in a group you've got eight hundred People that you're speaking.

00:10:17: it

00:10:17: really was.

00:10:17: i mean yes right back to the you know, sitting in mud huts with tribes.

00:10:22: It was literally that and really I suppose a lot of my philosophy just grows from that because we spent so much time with real people on their sofas talking to them in the kitchens before they arrive through groups.

00:10:40: You get such feeling about context when you weren't just talking about brands For hours and hours an hour every year, then bringing all that knowledge back into the agency to bear on your accounts.

00:10:55: You know for All of That Year.

00:10:57: so it wasn't just that you were now you commissions and coal research?

00:11:00: You'd get the findings And Then the researcher goes off when you don't ever see them again, you know that knowledge would be Still within you that you could bring in two account and Your brands are over time.

00:11:11: So you can See how kind Of consumer In The Agency perspective Was so kind of profound really and I was at the heart of all our planning.

00:11:22: And just to do that little detour historically, how is it invented?

00:11:28: How did you differ from other agencies?

00:11:30: they were working because... people, many people listening have seen Mad Men in the sixties.

00:11:37: You see these scenes with consumer interviews behind one-sided mirror and all that.

00:11:45: but what was the concept of brand planning?

00:11:48: That said we're going to change it.

00:11:50: Well I think before that there were a lot of agencies had very big research departments And a lots of agencies actually WERE the research department.

00:11:59: you know clients didn't really have them.

00:12:03: So there would be big research departments, but importantly sort of often sitting on another floor and they'd be kind of dipped into for old projects on brands.

00:12:13: But the difference in our planning was that researchers were taken out with a back room if you like and put right side by side clients and working with clients, not kind of kept apart from them because the other research farms classically were sort-of backroom research parks.

00:12:32: So it was a very active process of ongoing account involvement And our job is to just be totally versed in everything to do With the brands for clients The people.

00:12:46: we had all the quant data We did our own quals.

00:12:48: so if they're heavy research

00:12:51: And you immersed yourself.

00:12:53: There was a difference to before, it was commissioned and then you got back the project based.

00:12:59: but this like... You stayed on the same brand?

00:13:01: You immersed yourself?

00:13:02: You did research yourselves.

00:13:04: so you created basically something of an intuition or statistics environment by working for long time.

00:13:12: Profound intuition also knowledge usually more than clients because they would change roles Quite significantly, but actually with so the planners had.

00:13:24: Very very long and trusted relationships were clients.

00:13:28: you know.

00:13:28: often clients would move to another company And they want a planner to move With them because they have So much kind of trust in it.

00:13:36: was that yeah is really?

00:13:38: It's a really significant role on the agency Really believed in an invested in will.

00:13:43: perhaps come onto John Webster who has one other main creatives there.

00:13:47: at the time He had this incredibly symbiotic relationship with planning, so planning and John Webster in the way he wrote ads worked hand-in-hand.

00:13:56: And kind of liftoff happened really...

00:13:59: Okay we need to do a small twist.

00:14:01: please introduce Jon Webster to the German audience because yeah he's a creative god!

00:14:09: Yes yes I mean if you ask any creative about him I would hope even around the world, but certainly with the UK he would be up there as one of the most influential creatives at their worm.

00:14:24: And what did you say?

00:14:29: He was just the most famous creative... I mean it wasn't a flamboyant creative character at all and actually very quietly spoken But he had an amazing ability to write ads that were equally loved by the general population The Great British Public and the industry, that doesn't often happen.

00:14:50: He was a fantastic creator of popular advertising that was kind of recited in playgrounds talked about in pubs but lauded by the industry as well.

00:15:06: he is most famous for creating characters really.

00:15:10: so particularly bears furry, furry characters.

00:15:15: So if your audience look up things like the Crestabare, The Hofmeister Bear, the Sugarpuffs Honey Monster which is actually still being used.

00:15:26: I mean he didn't just do character ads He did one of those creative sort of favourite ads all time Which was something called The Points Of View For The Guardian Which interestingly literally this week... ...The Guardian, a newspaper in the UK have bought back an updated version of john's forty-year old ad which is one of the classic ads all time.

00:15:45: so

00:15:45: he was using.

00:15:46: One of the characters from that age and continues to speak.

00:15:51: this story tell the story.

00:15:54: it is wonderful most exquisite pieces of communication of all time.

00:16:00: I will

00:16:01: link it, but let's try to describe is basically a scene on the street and you see your skin head running towards man.

00:16:07: yes he holds briefcase so from one perspective looks like his gonna rob him.

00:16:12: then form other perspective.

00:16:15: You you see they seem to wrestle.

00:16:18: Yes, and the third perspective shows that above him There's a there is a ton of bricks which is about to fall off.

00:16:24: And then the story.

00:16:25: okay?

00:16:25: You really need to see the whole picture

00:16:27: see the hole picture.

00:16:28: yes I mean it was just The most exquisite summing up of the Guardian newspapers philosophy Which is that it wasn't owned by any kind of press bar and it was a genuinely Independent newspaper and gave me the whole unbiased picture came up with this brilliantly simple idea.

00:16:49: I mean, i've actually got the script that he wrote for that and when you look at it written as a script It's the most passed down.

00:16:58: there is hardly anything in it You know?

00:17:00: Its just so simple.

00:17:02: The voiceover is very stripped back But the Guardian at the time said we'll never get any better than what more pithily expresses our philosophy.

00:17:13: a paper and clearly they haven't because i've gone back to it forty years later actually still looks pretty timeless doesn't?

00:17:19: it is black-and-white

00:17:21: absolutely

00:17:22: interesting in.

00:17:24: originally was meant to have sound effects but when john got into the he was renowned for this.

00:17:29: you never stop kind of crafting all the way up to the end then use.

00:17:33: In editing sweet date they had some shouts and things like that really need turn them off And suddenly thought this is just even better without it because i have this kind of hypnotic quality.

00:17:43: there's no sound at all with whats going on in the street.

00:17:46: so yes its an amazing add.

00:17:48: so oh yes and it useful to know that he didn't do furry animal ads.

00:17:53: you did beautiful.

00:17:57: Mark Ritzen recently said, and I think it was done with system.

00:18:00: one that wear out is a myth.

00:18:03: Digging in the archives you can find true gold And then you retest these ads.

00:18:09: often they perform better than the current adds.

00:18:11: Yeah, especially if you keep them on for long time They become better and better and yes test

00:18:17: yeah.

00:18:17: another whole area Discussion.

00:18:21: we talk about that later.

00:18:23: let's first stay is there with John.

00:18:24: what did you learn from him if he would think of the time but will be the most.

00:18:28: I mean i think everything for me and just wanna buy sort of just so lucky really lucky to end up landing working at bmp, you know paul fell.

00:18:40: do it when u am poor felt trained me.

00:18:43: my first group discussion idea was with Paul sitting behind a sofa In a sitting room in Bristol, you know my first focus group that I did was without on the road with Paul.

00:18:54: So i've been trained by one of the most brilliant planners there'd be and it just happened.

00:18:59: at the accounts I worked on they all seem to have John as their creative on it And That Was Just Luck because There Were Lots Of Other Brilliant Creatives There As Well.

00:19:07: but so Yeah, I mean you don't realize at the time how much but i think pretty well everything.

00:19:13: I learned was from him and then You know that post-it note directly comes from that.

00:19:17: because John of all people And if we didn't have the science in the research to show it them But just intuitively understood That you need to be entertaining?

00:19:29: and that you Don't Need To Be serious and that People don't care about your products.

00:19:34: and that Was you Know by and large Because a lot of the products that We had At The Time we're really not very great products.

00:19:40: and his famous smash martians i don't know if you are aware that was for dried potato.

00:19:46: it's a

00:19:49: potato powder with milk.

00:19:52: and then you have a disgusting

00:19:55: thing.

00:19:55: or the crest of bear crester was this frothy drink.

00:19:59: and it's full of chemicals water and chemicals.

00:20:03: but you know what

00:20:05: the dark side of marketing.

00:20:06: I'm working

00:20:07: with dried potato or flavored chemical.

00:20:11: you can't take it terribly seriously.

00:20:13: all think that these are very profound.

00:20:15: so brands people size cuz they're really not.

00:20:17: and he knew because products were interesting, he had to make them interesting.

00:20:22: actually if u think about happening in the Mad Men area in The States at that time, but Burnback over at DDB.

00:20:29: I mean a bit before that... His great creative ideas tended to be on more glamorous products.

00:20:34: so you had the BW car.

00:20:36: You had airline which

00:20:37: wasn't very glamorous at the time.

00:20:39: It was super ugly and it Was a nazi car right after this second world war.

00:20:44: To be fair

00:20:45: better than dry potato,

00:20:46: that's true.

00:20:47: But you know what I mean?

00:20:48: If you don't have very glamour products are people aren't very interesting?

00:20:51: You sure as hell gonna make the ad sort of pretty interesting?

00:20:54: because um And he made them entertaining and all the things that we now know From data makes ads work Which will come on to sort characters campaigns humor music.

00:21:06: He just did all that stuff intuitively and thats why people loved his ads so much.

00:21:14: And I guess, All of the stuff i've kind of absorbed from him really because Im taking these ads out to talk about them in their city rooms So you could see how People felt About Them.

00:21:27: What we take From That First Bit Of Our Conversation That People Don't Give A Shit Is Not Basically to put people down is that they are not important.

00:21:36: It's basically changing the view of what they do, To make it matter for the people out there.

00:21:43: That I'm not interested.

00:21:47: yes no and comes from a deep respect For People but its certainly not a criticism on them.

00:21:52: you know.

00:21:52: The things They Are Interested in are their families how they're going to afford feed them that week, why are the washing machines making a funny noise?

00:22:00: You know what's happening in The Royal Family.

00:22:02: What is happening with traitors on TV That way?

00:22:05: you know they don't care about dried potato and why should They?

00:22:10: so it comes from position of humility that brands little things.

00:22:15: people lives understanding Things that are important In their life And just getting comfortable With our insignificance.

00:22:25: Well, we'll come on to this as well.

00:22:26: Maybe but this is where the whole purpose thing went so wrong I think because people lost that and thought... We

00:22:32: come exactly there!

00:22:33: Because if you start from the stance of consumer indifference what changes in our approach to communication?

00:22:40: And do you just mention the word purpose for example?

00:22:42: Yeah, everything changes like he said If You Get That Wrong and Start From A Position Of People.

00:22:51: Care About Brands.

00:22:53: First of all, you don't have to be entertaining because you feel that they're inherently interested in what your got-to say.

00:22:59: which Which there not?

00:23:01: You feel that you uh.

00:23:03: You don't need to kind of Be entertaining and can just sort of pump messages at them.

00:23:09: You Don't pay attention to branding Because you think but their paying attention to your ad so we'll work out What brand it is.

00:23:20: they're paying close attention to what you are doing, because their interested but not.

00:23:25: And often and then you sort of think well we'll just chop them change and will disrupt it or do one thing than another.

00:23:31: becuase there care enough glue all together.

00:23:34: try make sense a bit.

00:23:36: that's not true either.

00:23:37: so conversely if start from indifference ,you may get enjoyable easy know who is actually talking.

00:23:45: You just make it easy to do a lot of these things, and you earn people's attention by giving them something back in return which is making them laugh or telling them something useful or interesting.

00:24:02: So as you said in your introduction everything goes wrong if we get the start point wrong and purpose was... As classic example what can go wrong?

00:24:10: We believe that those values are important.

00:24:14: Ergo!

00:24:19: you've got things that are more important to you.

00:24:23: And yeah, it was a bit of an sorry debacle really wasn't?

00:24:29: We have been misled by some outliers.

00:24:32: we must say there's always examples actually purpose built into their core their brand and they actually benefit from it.

00:24:42: And without the purpose, that would be hollow?

00:24:43: Yes!

00:24:44: And everybody else thought probably maybe also a little bit of feeling.

00:24:49: you know I'm working really in dirty industry.

00:24:51: yeah not good for this world just selling some fizzy drinks which is bad for health but doing good marketing.

00:25:00: Good brand, yeah.

00:25:02: Brand leadership is something very valuable because it keeps people in their jobs also.

00:25:08: It protects us against like volatile times and I think that if you work for a very strong brand... You can be sure your job's a lot safer than the company with weak brands?

00:25:21: No!

00:25:22: You're right on all those things.

00:25:23: Byron said one of the things that distorts science is good intentions and I think these are very well intended people who were trying to make the world better.

00:25:37: But as you say, there's a world of difference between Tony's chocolate only that has built with purpose at its heart from kind of reverse engineer or purpose into a brand around for hundred years.

00:25:51: then selling shampoo washes peoples hair makes it clean rather than savings.

00:25:58: third world girls education or you know just it's.

00:26:01: this is totally different things and i think as u said i think was you hinted at as well there is often a tendency in marketing that if something works on one thing.

00:26:12: It must work on everything and dove probably with its own worst enemy on on that did it does the fantastic brand, Good for purpose.

00:26:25: I mean, it was a great purpose anyway.

00:26:27: but they also have enough money to have a master brand budget and then you can support products with product messages underneath that not many brands had that kind of luxury.

00:26:37: so yeah what's good for one brand isn't

00:26:39: necessarily good.

00:26:41: You've been there and they seem to be prone as a culture, too.

00:26:44: To go all in like then suddenly every brand needed the purpose at Unilever?

00:26:49: And now uh... Now that you're going on Creator and say like fifty percent of all budgets goes into creator is make a media choice.

00:26:57: so can you

00:26:59: add

00:27:00: to enlighten us why

00:27:02: I went particularly about unilever?

00:27:05: but i think I think that is something a lot of companies do, they roll out what works for one brand with another.

00:27:12: You have to try and be very disciplined don't you about treating each brand differently in its own respect?

00:27:20: But there's also big companies... There are differences between what they might say publicly or internally sometimes over-course correct.

00:27:29: to push things one way because it's hard moving dials isn't With big corporations and things.

00:27:37: so it's some.

00:27:38: but with that creator decision like I'm not, i wasn't at the table.

00:27:42: I am close to Unilever At The Moment But It Seems Like Such A Strategic Choice And The Picture That I Had In My Head Is Like A Sailor Without deciding which harbor he wants to reach, I will only sail with this sail and set it in that angle.

00:28:01: Whatever the wind is or wherever my goal is... It couldn't make sense of

00:28:06: it.

00:28:06: Tactics versus strategy isn't?

00:28:07: Yes i'm not sure its quite as extreme as that kind of pronouncement has suggested really.

00:28:14: It made a splash like that

00:28:16: yeah but sometimes these things are set as sort of markers to signify a change in direction that over exaggerates it, try and pull companies in certain directions.

00:28:29: That they perhaps need to go.

00:28:31: so let's see.

00:28:32: but I mean the whole creator thing... The jury is very much out anyway isn't here on the data or how you make this work?

00:28:40: It was lots of little world view.

00:28:43: I was part of a panel last week at the biggest German marketing conference is the OMR and there was a creator economy event.

00:28:52: There, nine to sixteen I always say it the other way around this format.

00:28:57: nine-to-sixteen summit because of the format And that was an interesting question like how can you build brands with creators?

00:29:04: Because creators themselves obviously are Brands and and i think A key thing Is You need To be recognized because otherwise the brand of the creator.

00:29:14: And if you don't have the distinctive assets and people do know that the Creator is talking about you, then yeah... Then we have a problem.

00:29:21: but I'm sure come back to this when talk about distinctiveness.

00:29:26: Yes exactly!

00:29:29: Yeah.. I would like touch on pet subjects because i think it fits in well.

00:29:33: what is brand planning?

00:29:35: How are we misled?

00:29:38: You're very interested how language distorts marketing And you've said that the words we choose to describe what we do have enormous consequences on how we do it.

00:29:51: Yes, and not... You don't think that's pedantic?

00:29:54: Oh God!

00:29:55: That is crucial.

00:29:56: I would like to... Les and I was interesting when we... The book that we wrote.

00:30:01: How Not To Plan.

00:30:03: We didn't set out to write a book.

00:30:04: It started as a series of articles that were then put together in a book.

00:30:10: When we were sort of looking back over all those articles it did strike us how.

00:30:15: How often this is the choice?

00:30:17: a word thing came up really some.

00:30:20: you wouldn't think words matter that much when your talking about kind marketing commercial effectiveness but as he said they really do not because

00:30:31: any given example?

00:30:32: yeah

00:30:33: well there's lots of different.

00:30:38: so, What I absolutely hate is consumer and you won't find that word used at all in the book right.

00:30:46: i never use it like any of my plans with me because.

00:30:50: It's such a bad choice.

00:30:52: what does this thing work?

00:30:54: and if we're trying to get close to people on the world consumer is automatically a kind of barrier in the way defining people by, I mean, in the old days housewife used to have.

00:31:09: no one says that anymore.

00:31:11: But even Gen Z and these labels are very distancing an unhelpful phrase for you.

00:31:17: so let's talk about people or ice cream lovers whatever we want to call them but they're not called consumers.

00:31:26: And then there were words which kind of embedded faults like things like brand loyalty.

00:31:36: We all know that's kind of wishful marketing.

00:31:39: Loyalty isn't really a thing, but I mean these are words sound very nice to have.

00:31:44: engagement is another one.

00:31:46: like what?

00:31:47: Messaging.

00:31:49: Landing messages you hear a lot about landing messages and a lot of the things sort sounds intuitively probably okay.

00:31:58: then start burying in underneath them.

00:32:01: they're not helpful.

00:32:04: Driving is another word.

00:32:07: Can we stick with the messaging?

00:32:08: That's a word that I hear a lot, can you say why messaging is so dangerous?

00:32:12: Well, messaging has its role but it comes back to those two sorts of communication really.

00:32:18: Brand building doesn't need messages as such sort of activation often does need message because your saying here's price or product this what tastes like whatever.

00:32:31: generally.

00:32:31: if think I'm trying to think of the great brand building ads that your listeners would listen too, but... No.

00:32:39: I can link them if we describe it and that's fine.

00:32:41: so... Cabrie's

00:32:41: Gorilla or Sony Balls?

00:32:43: Yeah people know Cadbury's Goriller

00:32:45: yeah.

00:32:46: I mean what is the message of Cadbury' Gorilla?

00:32:48: absolutely no idea.

00:32:49: there isn't one.

00:32:51: But theres a feeling in a set of associations something my god this all stands out.

00:32:58: generally speaking You don't need messages as such for brand ads where you're trying to create feelings and associations, an emotions.

00:33:08: I mean our famous John Lewis Christmas Ads example from Adam & Eve...I'm not really sure what the message on any of those were really?

00:33:17: They are all based in a positioning of thoughtful gifting.

00:33:19: but if did pre-test them ask people about their message they would find it quite hard put into sentence that was feelings and associations of sort of christmas in the feeling of giving people gifts or whatever.

00:33:37: but they're not messages as such not rational functional things that we can get into pre-testing later.

00:33:43: If you don't have a message, there's no point pretesting on messages because it works anyway.

00:33:49: But they do deliver on a core motivation during that time, which is connection for example.

00:33:55: And I give that feeling of connection and Marx and Spencers then become basically tool for creating these connections?

00:34:05: Yes!

00:34:05: That's

00:34:06: like...I just think you know i come here from the west of Germany where we're at the tool capital in Germany Influences my thinking probably because my great-grandfather was a tool maker.

00:34:17: Yeah, and everything is around tools.

00:34:19: So I think that brand it's like the thinking to.

00:34:22: yeah It's like oh basically its an offer.

00:34:25: as a tool i can do something for you Emotionally or functionally?

00:34:28: And I think That these kind of campaigns that he just described they They Basically hint towards how this could get me closer To Something than I want.

00:34:38: And if it's excitement with the gorilla, you know like sensual excitement or like Mark Spencers.

00:34:45: The great feeling that connection Christmas time get into them.

00:34:50: yes

00:34:51: its feelings and associations in emotions but not messages.

00:34:55: as such answer I mean there is a place for messages but not everywhere.

00:35:00: so

00:35:01: Let's take another example,

00:35:03: performance

00:35:03: marketing.

00:35:04: You called that the biggest branding success of last century?

00:35:08: Yes exactly.

00:35:10: and believe in words.

00:35:11: like you know Andrew Tindall has done this great work on compound creativity.

00:35:17: I mean that is a genius bit of branding or word use because it sounds so much more interesting than consistency doesn't Think?

00:35:29: just sounds rather dull and boring because nothing actually happens with compound creativity.

00:35:33: Now we're talking.

00:35:34: this is still got creativity, and then it comes out.

00:35:37: so the things you call thing do Do really matter?

00:35:43: And We very lemming like aren't we?

00:35:46: in marketing there's a everybody copies what everybody else.

00:35:48: these old words get embedded in In organization than generally speaking.

00:35:54: I think If we could all just try not to use any words that we wouldn't use in normal life, in marketing.

00:36:00: We'd all get on an awful lot bettery because you can cut out this engagement driving ecosystem and stuff.

00:36:07: It's just they're distancing words from real people And how brands really work and communication really works Which is much more gentle with things like nudging than driving Wishful marketing.

00:36:20: I would call it

00:36:21: Yeah, let's just phrase it out.

00:36:24: why performance has been such a great... rebrand, because what can be wrong with performance?

00:36:30: Everybody wants performance.

00:36:32: And it's a rebrand of sales promotion and suddenly you are doing performance

00:36:36: marketing.".

00:36:38: So that was ingenious!

00:36:40: Peter Field recently said like one of the things along in this short of it he was suggesting they might have chosen another word which is long as it needs patience.

00:36:51: He says it should be lasting – yes Yes

00:36:54: exactly.

00:36:56: i think that some other

00:36:58: words.

00:36:58: the other

00:36:58: problem with performance is you know all the brand building work but isn't performants inverted commas sounds like it's not actually generating any sales which is dangerous as well because they just makes people undervalued at and feel that's just doing a kind of fluffy stuff under its only their performance stuff that's actually selling.

00:37:18: So yes these words matters.

00:37:21: he say long and short of it calling things kind.

00:37:24: lasting demand and immediate demand is a probably better than brand and activation.

00:37:30: Because again, brand sounds like it's not actually selling anything It's just doing the fluffy stuff.

00:37:34: And that its the activation bit That there is.

00:37:37: So yeah The words are really important.

00:37:42: Yeah!

00:37:42: The words have basically mental models embedded in them They do?

00:37:46: Let us turn to that.

00:37:47: Like what is the mental model that helps us make advertising Actually work better Besides the post-it note.

00:37:58: Well, I'm sure there is a mental model.

00:38:02: i mean they're certain sort of principles of it.

00:38:04: like.

00:38:05: however you define that kind of long and short bit but thats like uh... double helix of advertising really isn't it?

00:38:12: You do need to understand this kind of brand building along and activation for one with better word.

00:38:19: show up at.

00:38:19: you know their fundamental models like that unique on stand The ninety-five five rule that they know.

00:38:26: if only a very small amount of people are in the market at any one time for your brand but.

00:38:32: Ninety five percent of them again to be buying it possibly up to a year I mean always staggers clients.

00:38:39: how infrequently brands are bought by typical buyers.

00:38:44: i think you once or twice a year big people get very confused about that as well.

00:38:51: and then Yeah, I mean just sort of general principles.

00:38:55: But i think that those are the most important there.

00:38:57: Are they kind of empirical?

00:38:59: Principles That you need to understand To build Advertising on before You get to kind Of creative principles really about How to be entertaining and we can probably come onto all sorts of discussions On back with characters music And All that sort of stuff.

00:39:17: but They're The kind of basic principles that you Need to know.

00:39:21: um but i mean the important thing is Also, advertising strategy is a bit like we were talking about earlier that there's not one strategy.

00:39:30: That these are bespoke strategies you build for all your brands and the principles of the same but they're long and short or whatever as every brand in any competitive situation has its different.

00:39:44: They will have different histories.

00:39:46: so there isn't really.

00:39:51: But the one thing that I just take away from this is, We should be in the business of creating future demand when we talk about brand.

00:40:00: Well,

00:40:01: sort of lasting demand but certainly not just immediate demand I think right?

00:40:05: Future also has a weakness because it's in the future.

00:40:08: But lasting demands so immediately creates demand.

00:40:11: yeah So tomorrow but not as strong as the performance that then it compounds.

00:40:16: and then we have another word.

00:40:18: Okay compounding.

00:40:20: Last thing

00:40:20: good word

00:40:21: compounding is great That's great.

00:40:24: The old Andrew Tyndall with compound creativity!

00:40:26: Yeah, he is

00:40:27: amazing just like... He's really driving his messages.

00:40:33: Well, he's very young as well but yes, he has on fire at the moment isn't it?

00:40:39: I don't think that guy ever sleeps But yeah, he does great stuff.

00:40:45: and System One are doing pretty good too new research and helping everybody understand.

00:40:54: Weirdly, to go back the web still but just so much of it is done.

00:40:58: lots of them talks with Orlando Wooden you know?

00:41:01: The things that he talked about which John intuitively knew about the power of jingle songs kind of consistency characters entertaining catchphrases or slogans all that stuff.

00:41:14: It's now science has sort of caught up.

00:41:20: come up with all that stuff undid four years ago.

00:41:25: And yeah, and that's the one big advantage of evidence-based marketing things good practitioners knew intuitively from experience.

00:41:36: suddenly you can argue for it in a boardroom or discuss it.

00:41:41: I would like to cover slightly touchy topic because We talked about research and many research departments, they have enormous power within client organizations.

00:41:52: But many of them are excellent statisticians but do not have mental models from my experience on how advertising works or branding is done to do this in an appreciative way.

00:42:08: what's the kind?

00:42:11: Yeah,

00:42:13: I think that's right.

00:42:14: Some of the great brands at the moment have very successfully built customer understanding into the whole brand without a research problem and you've probably heard a lot from Corey talking about how CEO and CFO talk directly to customers.

00:42:34: there is direct feedback.

00:42:40: Well, this is ELF Cosmetics and obviously it's a very kind of social-led brand.

00:42:51: They've got a fantastically short distance between the executive people.

00:43:01: their customers are just constantly getting feedback from buyers on social responding with new products.

00:43:12: There's just such an intimate loop.

00:43:13: when Corey talked about how the CFO has been known to get on TikTok and talk direct to customers, a CFO or even the CEO?

00:43:23: That is The Holy Grail if you can build that custom understanding right into their heart of your company like that.

00:43:28: A lot of companies cannot do that but they have research departments.

00:43:33: some are very good.

00:43:36: I did come across them You know, they do have to know the basics of.

00:43:42: That's what I mean is like there are excellent people that really hardworking excellence statisticians.

00:43:47: They do very precise work.

00:43:49: yes but it's Like What we talked about?

00:43:51: The mental model that their work after often this

00:43:53: Yes, they don't have one actually or they Or they yeah so well they're using kind Of phrases which a mental models embedded in them as We talking About likes sort of landing messages whatever But they've never Really acknowledged that There Is A Model embedded in that and they haven't thought about what the model should be at that point.

00:44:11: so yes a lot of them.

00:44:14: Do you need to have been much better trained i think him in these sorts of principles and have sense with bigger picture on how their research is?

00:44:21: just not sort one research project but no sense of how it fits into.

00:44:26: yeah big picture

00:44:28: let's start was that we educate now And we talk about a superpower of brands, which you often talked about and already mentioned.

00:44:36: Consistency.

00:44:39: isn't that boring?

00:44:40: Why should be consistent?

00:44:41: don't always need something new or exciting.

00:44:44: the people are bored.

00:44:45: just told us to entertain them again doesn't contradict helpers

00:44:55: Being a great kind of win, I think in the last couple years.

00:44:58: I mean largely due to System One because Les and I wrote an article on In The Book.

00:45:04: with the article that we put in the book We probably wrote it in twenty twelve So long time ago where were saying there's no such thing as wear out.

00:45:14: You know wearing is something you should be more interested.

00:45:20: Gold paper that we wrote together on Felix cat food where?

00:45:23: We talked about how Felix used the same campaign over decades Whereas whiskers which was a competitor chopped and changed around then.

00:45:32: We talked About the benefit of so, we've been sort of wanging on about it for ages but It never sorted.

00:45:39: nobody kind of didn't bite really.

00:45:41: people were still talking about wear out And then I think yeah i think they're kind of system one work again, Mark Ritzen has been really good at spreading this word in the last two years.

00:45:54: And it does feel like this is really being a quite revelation to people and people are now understanding that compound creativity – that choice of words have been quite help as well I think!

00:46:07: So now I think clients have got the message but the thing we need to do now is try.

00:46:13: that might imply.

00:46:20: And it certainly doesn't mean you just keep running the same ad for years on end, obviously there are like The Coat Christmas Ad and You Can Do That quite successfully.

00:46:31: but maybe the sweet spot is what I was talking about at Cannes with Les and Andrew last year where i talked about disguised repetition.

00:46:40: It's this sweet spot between.

00:46:42: Oh, that's nice disguised for a good word disguise repetition.

00:46:46: I got it from the music business because when songwriters write songs back That's what they're aiming for.

00:46:52: cuz our brains as you probably know love repetition are human brains love repetition.

00:46:57: But we only love up to a point When something starts to feel really repetitive.

00:47:02: so What song writers do is aim for?

00:47:04: They call disguise repetitions.

00:47:06: So you are actually repeating things but you don't really realize in our brains that they are being repeated.

00:47:13: So there's a sort of, it is very pleasing to our brains.

00:47:16: and thats what great brand campaigns do!

00:47:19: And I've talked at Cannes about Marmite which was one of our Adam & Eve breeze, we had twenty.

00:47:24: We have been running the campaign longer than Andrew Tindall has been alive so i think he would be done for twenty eight years or something

00:47:32: What a product, where's the innovation?

00:47:34: Where is hot new stuff in Marmite.

00:47:37: I think there was a packaging innovation you wrote.

00:47:39: Yes

00:47:39: we did, they're Squeezy Marmites and have been various products over years but usually done as one-off limited edition.

00:47:47: so if look at sales chart it has tiny bit along top which is MPD.

00:47:52: basically same product all that time The same love hate campaign.

00:47:57: You know, Dunkan award-winning work year after year.

00:48:00: Creatives love working on that.

00:48:01: no one's saying I'm not working on Love Hate because we've been doing that for twenty eight years.

00:48:05: so That's genius disguised repetition and to me that takes creativity the highest order To be able to do that.

00:48:13: anyone can come up with a creative idea this over here And something used to be overhear.

00:48:17: but it takes brilliant creativity to Be able to hold some things the same But refresh them as well and i think cam should honor that far more than they do.

00:48:28: totally agree with my partner uva.

00:48:31: we always joke that we should create an award which is like the steady hand on the wheel, No, I'm not going to use the word consumer.

00:48:47: People are in a volatile world and if you think of brands again as tools... ...I think they can be tools also to reassure people that some things stay the same.

00:49:00: Yeah, they give this warm feeling.

00:49:02: and you told me when we planned this episode.

00:49:06: You told us great story about Peter K., the comedian that did a concert... I would like to share.

00:49:13: it's fantastic!

00:49:14: Well

00:49:14: i don't know how much your listeners knows him but he is kind of popular comedian in the UK.

00:49:20: And now happened go one his concerts at the O-II arena.

00:49:24: so there are tens or thousands people.

00:49:28: And one of the things he does at the start of his shows is, he plays ads from... Well in the nineteen seventies actually a lot of them sometimes the eighties.

00:49:38: So we're talking you know forty years old as and there are no uh No auto prompts.

00:49:45: You know?

00:49:46: There's no AutoCube prompts or anything.

00:49:48: There's not words up on stage.

00:49:49: but so He has literally tens of thousands people singing along to these jingles from ads from forty years ago with no prompts at all, and everybody knows the words.

00:50:00: I mean a lot of them are sort of Cadbury's brands or things like that.

00:50:02: but yes it just struck me how long you know... How many of the brands we work on now would people be able to sing along too in forty years time?

00:50:13: And maybe we're not thinking enough about staying in culture.

00:50:17: We talk a lot about getting into culture But kind of..we are in the business of building memories devalue the things that make things easy to remember like slogans, jingles characters.

00:50:31: I mean that's why they all work so well.

00:50:34: but we've got slightly sniffy about all those creatively haven't it?

00:50:38: It sort of rolls their eyes at slogans and jingle... But if you look what teachers use to help kids learn things is repetition, jingle wordplay, character.

00:50:51: They helped us build memories.

00:50:54: that business of building memories, we have to make it easy for people.

00:50:58: To remember our brands.

00:50:59: as I was saying early you know often they're going to be buying a brand the year from when they see our ads and yet It comes back to that indifference again how arrogant That we think People are gonna sort work hard to remember.

00:51:11: We have to Make it easy For them to Remember When They're not interested in Our Brand?

00:51:16: When They buy In six Months Time.

00:51:17: And i Think Again if You come at it with that Perspective because your very different view on what you need to do creatively, to make that easy for your brand.

00:51:26: To come to mind they're not going to work hard to remember it and got better things with their lives

00:51:32: there busy and lazy.

00:51:34: yes yeah but this is so important.

00:51:37: This really needs to sink in next time.

00:51:40: go the table when you breathe.

00:51:43: what can we create That people will remember in fifty years.

00:51:47: Yes, that's the time horizon makes you think a little harder and

00:51:52: I didn't know.

00:51:52: so i found it lovely.

00:51:54: we all have our favorite bill.

00:51:56: burn back quotes but i found one recently i haven't seen before.

00:51:59: he said we'll talk about day after recall but i'm interested in decade-after recall.

00:52:07: how much of what we produced today is going to be recalled.

00:52:10: decades uh... probably not very much.

00:52:14: And you said Jingle's work, they're very brain-friendly characters' work.

00:52:21: and then there is something else that I remember from my childhood... There was also more humor in ads.

00:52:29: They were like jokes!

00:52:30: Everybody loves to repeat jokes and tell jokes.

00:52:34: And let's dive into that topic, humor and effectiveness.

00:52:40: Yeah this is such an interesting one isn't it?

00:52:42: Again how you know all the science shows a bit like characters and jingles at least.

00:52:47: but humour works so well yet... You look at those sort of graphs in the use of humour has just gone down and over time.

00:52:56: Why do think

00:52:59: there are lots of reasons.

00:53:01: Well, I suggest there are a few of them.

00:53:03: It's interesting that Cannes have actually reintroduced their humour category as of last year which is brilliant because what gets rewarded get made more – your point about consistency as well it's important isn't?

00:53:16: We need to reward consistency more but yeah why... So i think pre-testing has probably got a bit too answerful.

00:53:29: It's much harder to pretest humour in animatics and unfinished films generally, I think isn't it?

00:53:37: Because so many types of humour are not very amenable to performing well in an animatic because you've got facial expressions.

00:53:51: subtle stuff really.

00:53:53: that is hard timing

00:53:54: sometimes like a split second earlier.

00:53:56: It's not funny.

00:53:57: a split-second later it becomes funny.

00:53:59: yes,

00:54:00: we did them.

00:54:01: the Marmite gene project adds That we did four years ago.

00:54:05: We we didn't actually attempt to pretest in an animatic and we did it once when we got on Amber And then we tried again with a different animatic.

00:54:15: Then we've gotten amber which just couldn't get it to be Funny.

00:54:18: I don't know if you can pose the finish.

00:54:22: They are absolutely hilarious, but they're all based on kind of looks and characters.

00:54:29: Which films?

00:54:30: It's called Marmite Jean Project.

00:54:32: Okay we gonna link that.

00:54:34: You send me the link And put it in the short.

00:54:35: No its hilarious But we couldn't get to be funny in an animatic.

00:54:39: Luckily We had a very enlightened client Who just said I know were not going Get any better than this in a manner But i knew Its going To Be Funny.

00:54:46: We have James Rouse who is The Director.

00:54:49: He Is Just A Brilliant Director.

00:54:51: They were hilarious and they work brilliantly well.

00:54:53: So that's a good example of.

00:54:55: I think if you had a client who wasn't so enlightened That would never have made the lie today, so do thing.

00:55:01: that is an issue.

00:55:02: Globalization is definitely an issue.

00:55:04: There's a whole lot of humor like word play or whatever You can't do when you're trying to make ads that run across different countries And then you've got cultural sensitivities with certain sorts of humor.

00:55:15: It's not a total excuse because he can get human.

00:55:17: that crosses cultures and geography.

00:55:20: So, but that's another.

00:55:21: the whole purpose thing came about which was terribly po-faced wasn't it?

00:55:25: And everybody just got very serious about everything.

00:55:28: so That's another one.

00:55:30: people may be worried about offending people more than they used to probably.

00:55:38: Yeah

00:55:40: totally agree.

00:55:40: But let me try something.

00:55:43: ask me two questions.

00:55:44: One question what is my profession?

00:55:46: in the second one What is my problem?

00:55:49: okay What is your profession?

00:55:51: Actor.

00:55:53: Timing!

00:55:55: Very

00:55:56: good, very simple.

00:55:58: but

00:55:59: you try testing that and the thing could probably just again... That's sort of the Post-it note syndrome.

00:56:08: I think a lot of clients thought it slightly trivializes your brand if you're funny about treated more seriously, which is like the complete opposite of what

00:56:23: I have.

00:56:24: I've an intuition that it has to do with how is that going to help us sell?

00:56:29: We don't want to be laughed at.

00:56:30: we have such serious benefits in our products and What they don't understand Is that the humorous basically The glue That sticks the association In people's brains to make them relevant in future moments when they have a need.

00:56:47: And like you said, ninety-five percent of people out there are currently not in the hunting mode so they're in the browsing mode.

00:56:53: So humor is basically the sticky tape To stick the right associations into the browsing modes.

00:57:00: brains... ...to choose your brand.

00:57:03: at that moment They switch to hunting mode and then suddenly oh great!

00:57:08: It's basically if we can explain it humor makes your message brain-friendly and that is driving sales.

00:57:15: There's a different pitch from

00:57:17: let's entertain

00:57:18: people.

00:57:19: I think there are also more profound roles at human play.

00:57:22: when you just go back to what makes us human, why humans have evolved as humans...

00:57:33: Why do you think it is?

00:57:34: You're an anthropologist!

00:57:41: create bonds between people and if you analyze there's lots of interesting stuff being done on.

00:57:47: I mean humor isn't about we tend to think of jokes, but actually If you watch people interacting in the way that they laugh a lot together it invariably Isn't about jokes.

00:57:57: some people telling jokes laughter is away or Bonding with other People learn are people laughs more when their friends.

00:58:05: They laughed more When they're amongst other people than when they're on their own?

00:58:09: laughter is infectious.

00:58:11: It's one of the few mannerisms apart from yawning that are infectious, so all these things imply it does actually have an evolutionary role and that's very important for brands which is about building a relationship.

00:58:26: Humor isn't getting a laugh in terms of relationships between a brand or person.

00:58:33: You know i'm human, I get you.

00:58:35: I know that soft cheese isn't the most important thing in your life but bear with me!

00:58:41: It's a huge bonding mechanism.

00:58:43: That is how it evolves.

00:58:44: So its incredibly powerful in communication and we should all be using it a hell of lot more.

00:58:51: Thats good point.

00:58:55: And another thing is humor works on implicit level less prevalent in communication because performance is very explicit.

00:59:07: It's like, here's the offer this is the advantage.

00:59:09: do it now and look at hear... And the unsaid makes things funny so your brain adds things that make you also own more.

00:59:20: I've done it!

00:59:21: You know?

00:59:21: I got a solution.

00:59:22: there was little eureka moment when you get it.

00:59:26: That is also like you said bonding Inside jokes like among friends, that is something very powerful.

00:59:33: If everybody laughs and you don't know what it's about then obviously not part

00:59:37: of the... Exactly!

00:59:38: It's a relationship thing-not kind of cracking joke type of thing.

00:59:44: Yeah..it's very very powerful.

00:59:46: And when your right to get more sales activities or end humor can get in the way if I just want to how much something is where i can buy it or you know how long it's on offer for.

00:59:57: I don't necessarily need a load of humor there, probably could be quite irritating but if im talking about A brand in the way as u said that needs to attract my attention lodging my brain give me a warm feeling About this brand is gonna stay with me nine months until ive by then.

01:00:13: humor is very important

01:00:16: and i have another.

01:00:17: just think we can spend rest of podcast talk about humor because theres also.

01:00:22: when you make me laugh I feel like as if you've given me a gift, it's something like a pleasant feeling.

01:00:29: And the moment that happens reciprocity is deeply embedded principle in our human psychology.

01:00:38: so afterwards i want to give back some thing and minimum i want.

01:00:51: We create communication we need to give you something as u say to earn your attention back and humor is a great gift.

01:01:02: It's

01:01:02: a pity my actor joked in lens,

01:01:06: i love the reason people put good sense of humour on dating profile.

01:01:10: isn't it important things when someone else because when someone makes us laugh?

01:01:18: They get us and it you know, that's really important for us to feel like a brand gets me.

01:01:23: And yeah It's.

01:01:24: Yeah, it's incredibly it's incredible isn't is your right?

01:01:27: I think a lot of clients feel That slightly demeaning too.

01:01:30: there one of my favorite quotes in the book as i had this client we have We worked on this brand called harvest chewy bars.

01:01:37: they were sort of Serial bars and we had ads.

01:01:41: we were proposing some ads with squirrels in where the squirrels would sort of nick.

01:01:45: There was someone sitting on a park bench eating a chewy bar and the squirrel would come in, sort of nick it from him.

01:01:51: And this client had his lovely quote.

01:01:53: if I ever wrote another book It'd be the time for you to do what?

01:01:55: I will not have my fine products endorsed by a rodent which is... But actually endorsing your product with rodents can be very successful but that sums up everything!

01:02:13: That's great That's great, but that brings us to an interesting topic.

01:02:19: To the relationship with clients because you've been in the industry quite a bit and they have seen changes from BMP to DDB to Adam & Eve now The Recent Merger with TBWA.

01:02:35: What do think like how has the relationship With Clients changed?

01:02:40: And what Do You Think is important what makes them actually work?

01:02:45: and maybe for the future also, because I'm sure it is in UK really changing.

01:02:52: Everything seems to be happening quite fast in German agency business.

01:02:58: Lots change but probably one of things that I feel about a lot has changed which often are most important thing don't really change the trust really.

01:03:15: There's a sort of truism, isn't it?

01:03:17: That behind all great work is a great client but that or a great-client relationship and I really do think that as true as ever... And i think a lot people mistake good relationships for one being where there are no disagreements at all about consensus and let us skip happily along hand in hand.

01:03:42: That is right.

01:03:43: I think you need the sort of trusting relationship that enables you to disagree with trust within that.

01:03:53: and yes, so i think...that's one of things perhaps has changed that clients are afraid or agencies might be afraid of conflict in terms No, no aggressive sort of but you do need to be able to disagree with respect and trust.

01:04:12: i think and I Think consensus and comfort and coziness gets in the way Of getting the best most effective workout.

01:04:23: Don't think you can Be in a relationship where you just agree With each other all the time and get that Best work out And long-term relationships are really helpful with that.

01:04:33: I think project work makes it much more difficult, doesn't it?

01:04:36: Because you're only as good your last projects and then start all over again to build the relationship but... I was talking earlier about trust between planners and clients.

01:04:49: in old days when we worked years with clients You do build a level of trust.

01:04:58: companies and clients, brands that won IPA effectiveness awards.

01:05:02: Big ones last time around.

01:05:03: they were very long running client relationships with the same clients in place for a long time on the same agencies as well.

01:05:12: And I think that's not coincidence.

01:05:14: probably

01:05:14: wasn't Kit Kat something like fifty five

01:05:17: years or so?

01:05:18: Yes.

01:05:18: They've been longer than that.

01:05:20: but yes if you look at Who else was there?

01:05:23: Well, we weren't one on McCain's.

01:05:25: We've worked with them for nine years.

01:05:27: There were Yorkshire Tea.

01:05:29: I think they work together for the nine-years of Lathaway.

01:05:33: Those long term relationships are really important.

01:05:36: i think Yeah.

01:05:37: but this brings us back to beginning our conversation like pattern recognition.

01:05:43: experience Like what we discussed how the planner basically becomes brain, the memory of the brand.

01:05:56: But there's a brutal age.

01:05:58: discrimination in agencies is like...

01:06:01: I'm doing my best to fight that!

01:06:05: Yeah absolutely but isn't it strange when you think about this?

01:06:11: The most valuable people are exactly the experienced ones working for long time on the brand and its becoming less successful.

01:06:21: But there nobody seems to want to copy.

01:06:24: Yeah, see economics of the industry sort.

01:06:26: they tend to work against that.

01:06:28: I think a bit.

01:06:28: but yes i mean The ideal is you have A blend?

01:06:32: Don't You Have a department with lots Of young people who've got their different perspective and some Sort of old age wisdom around There as well!

01:06:46: turmoil at the moment, I think they appreciate people who have lived through a recession before and cost of living crisis.

01:06:58: And kind of been about around the blocker bit and come out on that side to value their opinion or expertise in it.

01:07:06: so there definitely is role for that wisdom too.

01:07:12: Do you ever tip for younger ones?

01:07:16: How build trust which lasts longer?

01:07:21: That's a really good question.

01:07:22: I think it has to come from not just opinion, when i was a planner at BMP... When you were young planner You weren't bringing an opinion into the table because you'd sat in rooms with your customers and talked them for hundreds of hours A year!

01:07:45: You bought that point-of view to meetings and clients would always respect.

01:07:52: And so that enabled you, even when a very young planner to bring something into the table other than just shooting from the hip and saying what do think.

01:07:59: So I think the more you can build your knowledge in an informed point of view rather then just opinion when you're younger, the better.

01:08:08: now?

01:08:08: You are not going necessarily doing it by having done hundreds groups but you know...you could get out there watch people on supermarkets or ask them go with their sales force.

01:08:22: No client is ever going to, if you say that I've heard your customers say this or watch them buying this.

01:08:28: Or notice they're always gonna listen because you'll be bringing a kind of informed point of view the table not just a point-of-view.

01:08:35: so yeah and it's easy much easier now to learn from people like Mark there are so many free stuff around can get yourself informed knowledgeable And having an informed point of view rather than just a point-of-view I think would be my advice.

01:08:55: Yeah, and what i heard is like put in the work it's.

01:08:58: show them that you're putting to yes

01:09:02: but your care That you care that you are knowledgeable thinking about things on their behalf.

01:09:08: But I don't like the word passion.

01:09:10: You know that passionate interested about brands Clients will always listen to.

01:09:17: respect And being able to disagree with that informed point of view, I think just generate respect.

01:09:25: In the old days when we used to test our own ads and people now would say well... That must be a bit weird wasn't it?

01:09:33: How do clients let you pre-test your ads?

01:09:35: aren't they just marking their home work?

01:09:38: but It was always in case if were much tougher on our own ad than outside research companies actually because We had to live with results.

01:09:46: so then see them go out and evaluate.

01:09:50: We were much harsher on them, and actually there was nothing that built trust with clients more than us saying it's okay.

01:09:57: It is working but I think we can do

01:09:59: better.".

01:10:00: And they really trusted you when you said that while being critical of your own behalf?

01:10:09: Right!

01:10:09: But maybe also a different incentive structure would work or help because if the agency paid for the duration that an idea is running.

01:10:22: And you get more and more money, the longer... Yeah?

01:10:25: ...and it tests well and delivers results then there's basically a bond like otherwise.

01:10:30: you have conflict of interest.

01:10:32: The agency has paid new creative so obviously they always want to sell your new one Or

01:10:36: buy the hour or whatever

01:10:37: Exactly!

01:10:38: All by the hour and other ones are about effectiveness.

01:10:41: You wanted achieve stronger brands More sales higher prices.

01:10:47: I think you're right.

01:10:48: There's a lot of room to be much more creative, but just smarter in the way that we are remunerated things and I think the industry is coming into stage where it needs change as you said them some smaller agencies starting up or experimenting with lots different ways being remunered.

01:11:13: You're exactly right.

01:11:15: Consistency is so important, and you don't need to be making new ads all the

01:11:20: time.".

01:11:21: It should built into the infrastructure?

01:11:22: Yeah it's

01:11:23: actually that.

01:11:24: yes... The longer your ad runs or the longer your campaign runs then you shouldn't be remunerated on that rather than as you say make something new every year.

01:11:34: but similarly clients everybody's reward systems needs to be based.

01:11:42: Clients need to be rewarded on the decisions they don't make and that's a change that they hold two rather than changing things as well.

01:11:50: Again, you know it's harder to build your profile if we keep things the same then if you're creating new campaigns isn't it so?

01:11:57: these things.

01:11:58: The way things are awarded do have profound implications for what actually happens.

01:12:03: Yeah,

01:12:05: totally.

01:12:06: So we need orientation by knowledge for example with this podcast masterclass in brand planning with Sarah Carter.

01:12:15: and then the other thing is that everybody is worried about or suffering from his complexity And you are a friend of simplicity.

01:12:23: Yes!

01:12:25: That's one of the last topics I would like to talk to You About.

01:12:28: Is The Clients Are Drowning In Complexity?

01:12:32: How Can We Help Them?

01:12:35: what should be done and why is it so difficult to achieve?

01:12:39: Yeah, I do think one of the biggest roles of planners nowadays.

01:12:42: It's just a help find our way on doing this kind of swimming sort of mode here.

01:12:47: Just things that seem more complex clients absolutely crying out for they love when you give them a strategy or a campaign thought.

01:13:06: There's a tendency, isn't it?

01:13:07: Isn't this called the sort of addition bias or something where if you ask someone to make something better and improve their recipe or an improved itinerary our natural intuition is that we should add ingredients rather than take things away.

01:13:22: And I think as planners one of our greatest skills and new sisters can't just take stuff away strip out and back whether within a portfolio or Within a brand positioning, or?

01:13:40: With an ad idea just it.

01:13:42: the natural tendency with consensus building Collaboration you know co-creational type client relationships is things.

01:13:51: Just get loaded on that day and you try cover off different options and build things in there And things just getting more and more complicated.

01:13:59: so we have to really fight to keep thing simple because you know going back to people's indifference and communications are just not going.

01:14:10: To work with if they can get their complex and confusing under it is very easy.

01:14:15: when your work on things yourself because i don't how things were so often you look at ads, Oh, that's what it was meant to

01:14:28: do.

01:14:29: Okay?

01:14:30: After thirty-six pages of strategy paper I understood what the ad meant!

01:14:34: Yes and Mark Ritzen has been great on banging this drum as well.

01:14:39: there are things just far too complicated with positionings and brand positioning.

01:14:45: It is a general process for workshops collaboration co creation more people building stuff into things.

01:14:56: It always comes back to haunt you in the end.

01:14:58: You might keep make someone happy by having their word included here, but it will bite your in six months because you'll have come up with something that nobody can sort of see execute no one could understand.

01:15:09: You ask people what the brand positioning is and if you've got ten clients telling a different when do they know there's something wrong?

01:15:15: But it happens quite a lot.

01:15:17: I

01:15:18: think that's a good test the listeners can do.

01:15:20: It is like you are clearly positioned, go out into the corridor get five people and ask them what we stand for?

01:15:27: Yes exactly!

01:15:28: And if he gets five different answers your positioning isn't clear.

01:15:31: or

01:15:32: just to look at documents remind yourself as well then something very wrong.

01:15:37: so yeah

01:15:38: because this point was describing outside need make it simple becasue they're busy but also to the inside because people on the inside of the organization, they don't read strategy papers.

01:15:52: They pretend to read them and if you do not remember them so we need make it simple for the insight as well because their behavior will shape how brand turns up in all touch points.

01:16:03: I think that is a really good point where often forgets too.

01:16:06: We work with our immediate clients but have whole load other people behind then who sell into the organisation again like real people don't understand brands or advertising and are not so involved in it.

01:16:20: So they need super simple strategies on a page, as simple ideas that can help people in their organisation to understand and hold onto them too.

01:16:29: Nobody ever says this is too simple... Or you make things more complicated?

01:16:35: It's always the other way around!

01:16:38: And it comes back to choice of words.

01:16:40: also I think The Words That You Choose Choose simple words short word simple words every day was that we use in real life not in marketing.

01:16:51: Meeting rooms and board rooms and that helps you to keep it simple as well,

01:16:55: can I have a good example?

01:16:57: That he couldn't talk about where something what said very complex and then there were reduced?

01:17:02: two simple sentence will

01:17:03: not the top of my head but i mean so much on marketing is just too complicated.

01:17:07: isn't really talking bout driving sort of eco friendly gen z along with kind Yeah, ecosystem to sort of activate?

01:17:15: these are what?

01:17:17: But but just try.

01:17:19: if you're just top tip.

01:17:20: Just put it in ordinary language and You can immediately tell if its nonsense or if it's likely To happen.

01:17:28: yeah I mean people talk a lot about don't know that exciting People to get involved on things like anything they

01:17:34: not engage on i-level.

01:17:41: try and get out of our marketing land, into real life.

01:17:44: And kudos

01:17:47: to Ehrenberg Bass who was distilled like this.

01:17:50: easy-to-mind easily find that's very powerful in my view a good example making something complex.

01:17:58: I think easy is just such an important word.

01:18:01: we forget it so much recently about how the troubled difficult world with cost living just is increasing the cognitive load for real people so much that, even more than ever they need things to be super simple.

01:18:22: Just make our life easier and keep a float on really!

01:18:28: And how dare we pump out stuff over-complicating?

01:18:37: It's arrogance... Yeah, so making things easy is just a really big part of our job I think.

01:18:45: You know that we just talked ourselves into setting the bar very high for the final dash of all conversation?

01:18:51: We have to make it easy now!

01:18:54: Okay one more topic...I love your book by the way and they show notes.

01:18:59: whoever hasn't read yet.

01:19:02: It's fantastic how not-to plan.

01:19:04: And can i say on the book any proceeds from the book go to the account planning group which is association for account planners.

01:19:15: It's very cheap actually, it's twenty pounds.

01:19:19: I was surprised

01:19:20: hopefully but yes there's an idea.

01:19:21: we don't make money from it so please do buy because all helps with training up future planters and that sort of thing as well also goes through a good course.

01:19:29: Fantastic, thanks.

01:19:32: So that was published quite a while ago and it was like missbusting but let's pick one which you think is still very destructive today.

01:19:45: And then the second part of this question are there new myths?

01:19:53: Is there something that has come up in the last eight years?

01:19:56: Well, we didn't talk about purpose at all in a book.

01:19:58: And I sort of wish because it was really just at the start or all that and really... Because it was based on an article which is only four hundred words.

01:20:05: We didn't think we could do justice on that and they've been some very good whole books written on purpose since then.

01:20:11: so That would have been a myth that we certainly wanted to bust.

01:20:15: i mean i'm sure now we'd be probably talking lots of littles and the sort of danger or lack of scale.

01:20:23: I know Les has talked an awful lot about that as well, but we kind of underestimate the amount of numbers and eyeballs you need to move the dials for sales.

01:20:34: Our John Lewis Christmas ad example used in terms of impressions get half a billion-to-a-billion impressions every Christmas.

01:20:43: You need multiple millions Because these numbers still sound quite big, people say we got however many views on some TikTok or whatever.

01:20:55: Tens of thousands and hundreds thousand maybe rounding it is really not going to do anything.

01:20:59: so you know the kind.

01:21:01: if the myth that these littles is probably a bigger one as well.

01:21:05: I heard last week influencer marketing in social media will replace TV as lead media for example.

01:21:15: yes certainly not for a long time.

01:21:18: whenever you hear anything is going to replace anything i was there or anything's going to kill something awful the death of anything who's applied slightly cynical kind.

01:21:27: You know most things don't change quite as fast.

01:21:29: people think they're going too.

01:21:31: so yes that sort of myth.

01:21:33: and then let me, the words like driving, I just noticed everything is just driving this app and other at that moment.

01:21:40: That's a good word to sort of bust because we don't think anything is quite powerful in marketing.

01:21:44: it might nudge people or encourage them but doesn't drive people anywhere really.

01:21:47: so there are few.

01:21:49: those In terms of well continuity and wearing thing its massive i think has got profound implications.

01:22:08: That consistency is bad and that you need to disrupt us as good.

01:22:11: I think that's one of the ones, certainly would say it becoming more important... And what

01:22:24: about?

01:22:26: everybody talks about AI?

01:22:29: Well yes we didn't cover that in a book at all!

01:22:33: Well that would be a whole new podcast.

01:22:35: but I think effective kind of emotional communication is always going to involve AI working hand in hand with real people and real ones.

01:22:47: It's brilliant AI, none of us know where it will go or what its gonna do.

01:22:52: But basically we're in the business of talking about our brains.

01:23:02: They haven't changed very much in that time.

01:23:04: So the fundamentals of how you communicate Haven't changed either and I think we're always going to need a human brain in there kind Of work hand-in-hand with AI to effectively communicate just as it's.

01:23:18: You know if your detective, you might use AI But you still gonna be walking the streets talking to people eyeballing them.

01:23:24: If you are an architect?

01:23:25: Do you might be using AI for your plans?

01:23:27: what he is still going to be?

01:23:27: walking aside feeling the wind.

01:23:31: The two will work together, I can't see it replacing humanity entirely in communication because its just such a human thing.

01:23:59: environments, and then he explained chess.

01:24:02: AI beats every human in chess.

01:24:06: Then in Go a little bit more complex took awhile longer but still manages to do it.

01:24:15: I didn't even know that before.

01:24:16: A multiplayer online game called StarCraft And then showed how many variations exist in this game.

01:24:24: until today an AI only gets to grandmaster level And then slow, quite quickly is going down again because our twenty watt human brain.

01:24:34: Is still much better in dealing with fuzzy logic and pattern recognition in highly agile environments which are complex?

01:24:43: Yeah!

01:24:44: Then I had to think after listening to that.

01:24:46: it was good news... a little bit like StarCraft.

01:24:51: There are many, many moving pieces constantly.

01:24:54: there's certain principles obviously that we talked about the need to look out for but you still need pattern recognition and judgment of feeling intuition.

01:25:02: then they will be powerful tools for things.

01:25:05: just hard labor or work.

01:25:07: yes Yes, maybe it levels the playing field for smaller brands because they can produce things which used to be very Very expensive and when they have the right idea in the right judgment.

01:25:19: They can produce them.

01:25:20: yes I think that's probably right.

01:25:22: so yes all is all hope It's not lost.

01:25:24: there still a role but still a roll from planners in their as long as human beings are kind of messy and flawed an irrational and And then half kind of random full Wonderful tendencies i think you still need us in there somewhere to communicate effectively with him.

01:25:41: That's a fantastic springboard for our finish.

01:25:43: So let's assume all listeners will get eighty percent of what we've discussed now, I hope they enjoyed it.

01:25:50: They had good time with us.

01:25:53: But what should they remember?

01:25:54: The three things that they should remember and just stick the sticky note.

01:25:59: It has to be one of them so only two left.

01:26:03: What other two messages would you put on there?

01:26:10: Work in advertising, but don't live in advertising.

01:26:13: So fight really hard to keep one foot out of it and so read Widely and randomly you know spend as much time as you can trying to Appreciate what?

01:26:28: It's like do not think and behave like you.

01:26:32: I Think that would be another one.

01:26:35: And then I think I have to have a bill burn back quote in there given what we're talking about AI as well.

01:26:42: that take that wonderful Bill Bernbach quote, you know don't get too carried away with changing man but focus on unchanging men and the things are going to stay the same because our brains were essentially Paleolithic And they haven't changed.

01:26:59: They won't be changing very much anytime soon.

01:27:01: so That would So

01:27:05: be fascinated by the unchanging

01:27:07: man.

01:27:07: Yes, yes

01:27:08: and that leads us to the brand code of Markencraft which I still have to ask is like you Have a chance to put a screensaver question on The smartphone on the laptop on the desktop That it can be just a word It can be a quote?

01:27:20: It can Be just a picture.

01:27:22: what would You put on there for all the people out There responsible for brands?

01:27:26: indifference

01:27:28: Indifference as words indifference, remember.

01:27:32: Yes exactly yeah

01:27:35: that's fantastic Sarah.

01:27:36: thank you very much for this conversation.

01:27:40: I'm gonna try to make a short summary.

01:27:44: the starting point what i learned is it not strategy document but data dashboard like sense of humility.

01:27:56: Remember the indifference of people out there.

01:27:58: The acceptance that people do not care as much about our brands.

01:28:03: and thats liberating, what I learned is well it's not to put down but its liberating makes you help doing better work.

01:28:11: then second thing is stop lecturing start entertaining because thats brain friendly use more humor Bolts like characters, they are out of fashion and still work.

01:28:26: fantastic for the brain.

01:28:28: And we learned that words shape our decisions.

01:28:36: Words matter!

01:28:38: Yes very good.

01:28:39: Okay well thank you again

01:28:42: Sarah.

01:28:43: This was wonderful.

01:28:44: Thankyou

01:28:45: enjoyed it.

01:28:46: If yes, recommend

01:28:49: the market power of your friends and acquaintances or colleagues.

01:28:52: And leave a rating behind!

01:28:57: It helps enormously to discover this other podcast as well.

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